Many things can be coached , developed or strategies worked out to circumnavigate or cope with. They allow people to use their own abilities and drive to the best ability. But this can only take you so far.

My hobby is running and coaching runners. I can take a runner who is keen and puts the effort in and make them a far better / faster / less injury prone runner. Working together we can set realistic goals and have a good chance of achieving them.

What I ( or they) can’t do no matter how much coaching, effort, training or miles they run do is make them an Olympic class runner ( or a national level one) if they dont have the innate skill / DNA /genetics.

It’s the same in business.

Andre

I was going to respond to your post by answering your question directly. But I'm not going to.

You've posted numerous similar queries and observations, all seemingly related to your long struggle for employment and/or advancement in the field of HR. You obviously appear to have sufficient insight to see that the issue or difficulty you face is not just the system that works against people of differing neurodiversity, but is also a challenge for those people such as yourself, overcoming the lack of some of the social skills or social attributes you and others have and describe..

What I see is the impression of an endless struggle and challenge - an uphill journey with the possibility of no end. I wonder have you ever thought of changing direction at all - doing something different with your life?

A lesson from Portia Nelson:-

I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But, it isn't my fault.
It still takes me a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.”

In reply to David Perry:

Hi David,

An excellent idea in theory but here is where the real problem lies and where reality also bites accordingly to how the labour market thinks, works and the attitudes of the employers concerned:

Although we have age discrimination legislation, in practice, no other profession is now going to suddenly take me into an entry level role, employ me as a graduate trainee or train me up at the age of 45 with no prior relevant experience. That is a virtual fact and I have already tried it with Marketing, Advertising, Estate Agency, Banking, Media, Communications, Journalism, Public Relations, Travel, Police, Recruitment and a host of many others that also interest me. The answers all came back to my applications and were all saying the same thing, namely 'No.' Other candidate's experience, background and existing track record to date had a better fit and match to their business needs and the position that they were recruiting for. They most likely wondered why I applied to them and I don't fit the employee stereotype as all the new staff were all in their 20s.       

Their attitude will also understandably be that why aren't you working in HR, and if I tell them, they will then think that if HR did not want him, why would we? In addition, I cannot now start investing new time and new money into doing postgraduate professional courses with no eventual guarantee of work or doing unpaid internships / volunteering for many years to try and gain the necessary experience to break into an entry level role maybe at age 50. The CIPD 7 will also go to waste as well as I cannot use it in another profession.  

That is therefore how the real world and job market works, there is no other path, I am where I am and I have now invested too much into HR (in terms of time, effort and money) to now pull out. What I do however need to do is to just stick it out and drive it home. All other professions also require the same soft skills as well and I am not the IT or STEM type either, although that will take the best part of 5-10 years to retrain for. I am simply over the age to now embark on a complete sector and career change and would not get in in anything else, as they all have clearly defined entry streams and pathways and only take in a certain number of people who fulfill certain criteria at particular times of the year.      

In short, I can't get into another profession and cannot risk giving up a job to start retraining for something and then end up with no profession at all in my late 40s as you have no experience and they don't take people on the basis of courses alone. I also have monthly outgoings to cover.  

With regard to neurodiversity, what I can however do is let people know about it in advance, so if things go a certain way, they know the reason(s) behind it.

Any thoughts?

Andre.

In reply to Keith:

If someone (without the aid of Lucozade sport and a treadmill in a gym) trains so hard, so intensively and invests 5x times the amount of time and effort as a naturally gifted runner with innate talent, although they can never perform and do it quite like them, can they close the gap considerably to almost be like them, just that it's coming with more effort then flowing entirely naturally?

As they say however, be a first rate version of yourself than trying to be a second rate version of another person. We are all who we are and cannot change that.  

These issues are not found outside of work when I meet and interact with people when doing sports, at the synagogue and other social clubs, communities, societies and activities that I am an active member of and participate in. But then, that is the very issue. At the synagogue on Saturday I am not at work but it's my own free time. They improve the social interaction and social communication skills, but whether or not they automatically translate into the workplace, a different dynamic, scenario and situation is another matter.      

To take the running analogy one step further. With effort, hard work and a good plan it’s possible to turn some ( although not all) 5 hour marathon runners into 4 hour marathon runners. It’s possible to turn maybe 1-5% into a 3:45 runner. It’s highly unlikely you will turn many 5 hour runners into 3:15 runners. And at 3:15 there is still a long way to go to get to the front of the pack.

So I agree it’s about maximising someone’s potential ( and isn’t that what lots of HR should be about) but it’s also about realising what that potential really is and setting stretching aspirational but realistic targets.

I have mentioned it on a number of your threads ( most of which you never go back to or reply to despite people taking lots of effort to comment) you believe you are talented. This hasn’t or isn’t being recognised in your HR jobs - that’s what you should spend some time reflecting on. Why people are not recognising your contribution and if therefore it’s as great as you think? You tout your many and varied academic qualifications - but can you demonstrate you have used any of these at all to the benefit of your employers? If not they are just bits of paper on the wall - employment wise.

My (less insightful and possibly blunt) view is that *some* soft skills can be learned by experience, eg if I wrongly judge a situation to be humourous, and am met with the hairy eyeball, I'm mindful that in a similar situation to pause and ' read the room'. My autistic niece cannot do this as her condition simply doesn't allow that new soft skill to be picked up. But some others who are also not NT can pick these skills up, such is the uniqueness of being on the spectrum/neurodiverse.

I do think that the nature of HR - seeing into the future almost, considering each situation on its own merit, judging one course of action to be a disaster and yet the week after the absolute right call depending on the context - would be difficult for someone who is neurodiverse whos condition means they cannot see beyond black and white into the shades of grey.

I do think sometimes though it doesn't boil down to any of this and comes down to straightforward willingness to accept there is a need to change. If that condition isn't met, then theres no chance. Regardless of being NT or diverse.

In reply to Samantha:

Is the best approach here to tell everyone in advance that I have neurodiversity and hence do not automatically pick up on, read or understand the unwritten rules of social communication and social interaction? They therefore understand it. In addition, should I also explain that I am not going to get into any other profession now at 45 with no prior experience and also cannot start trying to change my career or retrain at this stage with no guarantees of employment, so I need to stay in HR, come what may. Reality always dictates as my second choice, Marketing, will not take me either. 

It can however also be a hidden asset as well as Albert Einstein had it. Essentially, I don't take immediately like ducks to water people who I don't know or meet for the first time. I also find it difficult talking to strangers.   

All of these things however can be difficult for most people as well, with or without it.  

In reply to Andre:

What my other issue is, involves understanding how to read and negotiate the intrinsic social subtleties and signs in order to progress a relationship from that of being an acquaintance to that of being a friend. That I find particularly complex and do not also always understand the various boundaries of different types and levels of relationships and intimacy. Do however most people either?

In reply to Andre:

I honestly don't know Andre....again I think it would depend on how it manifests itself during conversations. I think I am the sort of person who would be very upfront if I wasnt NT and say "I have autism/aspergers/tourettes etc so if I say something odd I probably won't mean it in the way its taken and would appreciate you giving me a nudge if I do".....it all depends how prominent it is in your interactions I suppose and how comfortable you would be if someone took you up on your offer! I can't imagine it doing any harm, anyone who reacts with anything apart from respect probably isn't worth giving the time of day to anyway.

I do think there are some roles that may not lend themselves to someone who isn't NT, just as I think there are certain roles that people who are neurodiverse would outshine those who are NT. e.g. most people I know with creative roles (and are VERY good at what they do, exceptional I'd say) have certain traits that make me think I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn they were neurodiverse, indeed at least 6 out of 10 creatives I know and have worked with are on the spectrum somewhere.

FWIW I think roles like marketing (sales essentially with a fancier name) are way too corporate and boring and 'normal' for someone who is neurodiverse and can therefore tap into parts of the mind that are usually closed off most of the time to NT's :)

In reply to Samantha:

I rather just now come out and warn people in advance, especially in the workplace, so there are no undue misunderstandings, misinterpretations and so that certain reasonable allowances can be made for it. People also better understand something that they may sense but cannot cannot quite put their finger on or articulate it in words.

In reply to Andre:

André,
When talking about Einstein being neuro-diverse, beware of falling into the logic error of "all elephants are animals, therefore all animals are elephants"

Is the real key to succeeding & getting ahead in ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING that you essentially need a certain blend of skills & the right type of personality?

Fixed that for you.

In reply to Robey:

* And a little bit of luck

In reply to Keith:

Talent may be not recognised if one is not in the right organisation and hence not so passionate about it the environment / sector but only the role. It may be more interesting working as an HR Advisor for Booking.com in Amsterdam than in Northamptonshire County Council.