In reply to Andre:

No conclusions at all. It’s just how it is in your department and for me has no relevance to your struggles to get on. Indeed if there is ( as your underlying suggestion seems to be) sone underlying sex discrimination allowing males to progress then this should make it easier not harder for you to progress.

As for your options you have been given loads of advice from colleagues as to what may be holding you back and what steps you might take to move on. I am not sure I can add anything useful to them.

In reply to Andre:

Beware of allowing a misguided sense of entitlement to enter your thought processes. I'm still perplexed by your belief that you "can't become an HR practitioner".

In reply to Robey:

I'll just throw my hat into the ring here - I 'only' have CIPD level 3 and I did that about 8 years ago. However I was already in an HR Advisory role when I started it, and have held various positions since in a range of different organisations, including HRBP, ER specialist and HR Ops manager.

I accepted that I would need to keep leaving places to get better jobs elsewhere - I've never found a place where there has been much emphasis on (or sometimes, opportunity for) internal progression. That doesn't suit everyone, some people prefer to spend longer with one company even if they don't get to progress. I was willing to do what it took and I think that also got me wider experience in different areas and types of business, so when I go to interviews now I find I can nearly always draw on experience gained from somewhere similar, even if it was a few years ago. This always seems to trump the lack of CIPD 5 or 7 (they usually ask why I dont have these and I give my standard answer which they tend to accept).

So how did I get into an Advisory role in the first place? I started as an Administrator and later got an HR Officer role in a small company - it was then down to me to make my mark and I set about recommending lots of changes, I was pro-active. I researched what I didn't know and used free advisory helplines and the internet. I made it my business to learn as much about HR as I could and was then able to impart what was usually deemed as helpful wisdom! I even ended up handling an unfair dismissal tribunal claim. This then enabled me to secure a more traditional HRA role in a larger company and I just continued to grow and move on. I wouldn't say I have progressed massively in my career, its taken a lot of years to get from HRA to HRBP level but I dont think having CIPD 7 would have really helped fast track that.

One of the key themes I've noticed is that for more senior roles, employers love it if you have an industry specific background, even though HR is very transferable. If you really feel you are stuck as an Administrator then perhaps try and get a similar role in a different type of company, to at least broaden your industry background.

In reply to Robey:

I can’t speak for other individuals as all of our circumstances are unique, but in my particular case it is virtually impossible. I am also being realistic and have come to terms with it, but also grateful that at least I have a job as an HR Administrator.

I entered the profession at 40, have a CIPD 7 and can’t get formal 9-5 advisory experience.

The result is an imbalance between education and experience with possibly my age being now against me having turned 45 yesterday.

Although I was a mid career changer, people also expect you to be on a certain level at a certain stage of life.

That just did not happen, work or deliver for me, or put another way, I got left behind on and in the labour market.

In short, I couldn’t get the position(s), it is more difficult to find work and / or start a new career after 40 and I also can’t break into the private sector either.  

In reply to Andre:

To summarise this all is a fine nutshell, jobs wise for the profession, HR Administrator is all that I can get, and the situation and circumstance does not change either overtime or with studies. The employers say that I don’t have the experience and I also can’t get the experience. They simply don’t take me. 

I have ‘a job’ at least which is far better than being out of work and which I should be thankful for.

In reply to Andre:

Hi Andre,

Andre said:

Although I was a mid career changer, people also expect you to be on a certain level at a certain stage of life.

I applaud you for opening this thread in the first place. I think there is a certain amount of truth about what you say here, but in my view it is important to build a compelling personal and professional narrative and show others by a positive tone and actions and 'lean forward' attitude that managers can put their trust in you.   

Andre
Good luck.
In order to help you move forward if you want to contact me via the messaging thing on here I will give you an honest independent assessment of your Cv and LinkedIn presence. As a senior HR bod would see it.
Keith

In reply to Keith:

Thanks, Keith.

Recall your excellent advice here, previously.
www.cipd.co.uk/.../267866

In reply to Keith:

Hi Keith,

What do I click on here to message you or send my LinkedIn profile / CV etc?

What I have at least learned with this discussion is that I am not going to get a job off LinkedIn.

Over the past three years, I have, worldwide, made 63,500 HR and other role applications with the 1 click apply by just tapping the button and sending my profile.

Its also far less time consuming than completing an application form one at a time, and you can also attach and send your CV along with your LinkedIn profile with the tap of the button.

Half view it but never respond, and the other half send an automated recruiter reply back that other candidates better match the requirements of the role / experience requested by our client.

Thousands of people worldwide view those online LinkedIn job advertisements which are also cross advertised and they are really for experienced hires with a 100% exact profile match and fit.

I did it as I thought I could eventually ‘click myself to a new role’ if I did enough of them both globally and overtime, but never got a single interview, yet an offer out of this. 

This experience of mine could actuality feed into a new topic that if people are not going to get a job off LinkedIn, what is it there for (ie your online CV) and how effective is it as a job searching tool.

Having said that, one also needs to write many many blind speculative letters to companies before they would get a job using that method of approach or tapping the unadvertised hidden market as well. Most would reply that we don’t currently have any vacancies but will keep you on file for future.

Generally, it is extremely difficult and highly competitive nowadays to actually get any type of job on any level, including working in Starbucks Coffee.

We have never had full employment and there are always more people looking for work than vacancies available, and the employers are very selective and careful who they take, often putting up barriers along the way.

Kind regards

André

In reply to Andre:

I definitely agree that you need to largely ignore the jobs you can apply for with one click via LinkedIn. I was applying for jobs 2 years ago, after 14 years in my previous role - so I had no experience whatsoever of how recruitment works 'these days'. It was quickly clear that one-click applications don't work at all. Based on my own experience, I'd say that LinkedIn is your shop window - you need it to be clear, comprehensive and selling your 'benefits' - the things that make you stand out as a job prospect. Most recruiters will review your profile there if you apply for a job, so it's an additional resource that you can use in your favour.

What I found still works best is taking the time to write a well-crafted application for any job you're interested in. Don't cut and paste, write with enthusiasm and knowledge about the organisation, and use plenty of examples. I know you know this, but it's worth getting a friend to read an application through to check you're selling yourself as positively as you can. If you're applying by CV, tailor your CV to each application you make (which not everyone does - we tailor the supporting letter, but it's worth tailoring the CV too). Don't use tables in your CV (I had not realised how few recruitment tracking systems can 'read' information in tables).

I recognise that you've said that you get through to interview stage reasonably well - so you're definitely in the running for the next position. If you weren't ready for it, and they weren't willing to take on someone with your experience, you wouldn't be shortlisted. So I'd recommend again sourcing some interview coaching - from someone who will tell you directly what you need to change to become the first choice candidate.

While I understand your frustration in not being able to progress quickly in HR, you need to sell the benefits of your previous sector experience - as others have said, it's a real strength in many areas. I think you said that your previous career was in law, and that's an industry that really only wants HR professionals that have a strong understanding of the sector. Having a strong legal knowledge/framework is also so very relevant to HR, that it's hard to see your career change as anything other than a positive element of what you'd bring to a role.

Good luck - don't let your frustration become the story here. I think there's been a lot of very helpful advice on this thread, and I hope you'll find the right next step in 2019.

In reply to Andre:

I've had one job interview through LinkedIn which progressed to the second stage but I'd been offered another job that was more suitable by that stage and turned it down. This wasn't through the one click application process though, this was through networking on there - a few former colleagues shared that I was job hunting and recommended me and someone with a job vacancy saw the posts and got in touch.
I've also had people review my LinkedIn before interviews and discuss my recommendations from colleagues with me.
I'm not sure I'd recommend the one click application process but it can be useful for finding out about opportunities.
I would also still recommend making sideways moves to get the experience in order to move up, or look at moving up within your own organisation when opportunities arise as they know you and what you can do.

In reply to Andre:

Hi André,

Like you I struggled to break into HR. I had over 30 interviews some had three rounds with presentations and I always got the same response it came down to you and one other person. I finally landed a really good job but I had to take a break. From reading your posts I can feel the desperation in your posts of wanting to change jobs. In order to succeed, I believe if you portray you love your job and only applied because this is your dream job as love the business rather than applying for every single HR Adviser role you see. The more interviews you have the more quickly you are able to answer the questions and come across rehearsed which many interviewers do not like as feel not speaking to you but rather someone desperate for the job.

Take a break from the job hunting love what you do and hopefully like me someone will finally see what you have to offer.

In reply to Lizzie:

I seem to be bucking the trend here - not only have I managed to carve out a pretty solid HR career without CIPD 5 or 7, but I also don't use LinkedIn! I have no profile. I used to, but just got a lot of requests from recruitment companies and it got annoying - plus I didn't find it really helped me with job hunting, so I deleted it. I don't think its held me back, no one has ever even asked me if I have a profile or where it is. Maybe that's changing now but for me, the shop window is still your CV and covering letter - if that is good enough it won't matter that they can't find you online.

In reply to Andre:

If you have made thousands of generic applications, no wonder you are feeling demoralised and no wonder you are having no success.

André - I'm going to be blunt here, but I think your analysis of this issue as demonstrated by this thread may hint as to the reason you are not getting the job. I have got frustrated reading this thread and seeing that you don't seem to learning or listening to the good advice you have been offered.

Your thinking seems to be very linear and black and white. You keep trying the same things and they are not working (applying for thousands of jobs via Linkedin), or you think of alternatives, but don't necessarily think them through (e.g. change of career into marketing, doing a Phd). You blame others for your failure to succeed (might be age discrimination or that you're overqualified or underexperienced or some other reason), but you are not looking closely enough at yourself and the way your present your career story and suitability to progress in HR. Members have offered you tonnes of useful advice, but you appear to be dismissing it or ignoring it.

HR is a profession in which you need to be comfortable working in the grey. You need to be able to look at a problem and work out how you are going to solve it and you need to be flexible and adaptable when things don't go to plan. Being a good HR advisor isn't about following a process or taking linear steps. You need to deal with humans who are unpredictable and messy at the best of times. You need to listen to others and take their advice. You need to be able to read between the lines and understand the hidden meaning in stuff. You need to be able to influence others and communicate well with people.

Your posts in this thread have not demonstrated that you can do some of these things well. Maybe this is also coming across in your applications and your interviews as well.

I think you would benefit from building these skills before trying to apply for more HR advisory roles. Unfortunately, you can't really learn many of these skills at university or through academic qualifications and they are quite different to the skills needed to be a good HR administrator (attention to detail, accuracy, patience, process-focussed). They come from life experience and learning on the job. They come from getting things wrong and trying a new tack and they come from listening and learning from others.

I know you are struggling to get HR advisory experience at the moment, but you can find other ways of developing these skills. Maybe a good way to develop these skills would be to volunteer with an organisation like Citizens Advice or the Samaritans, where you have to deal with difficult issues, work with people and provide advice and support. It would be good experience to talk about at interviews.

In reply to Lesley:

Dear Lesley,

Many thanks for your response and helpful advice.

I do volunteer with the Samaritans as a Listener on the phones in the evening, but they don’t actually take on HR volunteers during the day. Like the CAB who I have also made inquiries with, they have a core HR staff team based only at their Head Offices which are full time, paid and permanent and not in any of the local branches and centres around the country.

Some other places may take on daytime HR volunteers, but I would then need to leave my paid daytime job to do that which is not a viable option either, as I can’t naturally be in two different places at the same time.

I have been volunteering as an HR Advisor on a weekly Wednesday evening basis at the Mormon Church in London since September 2017 at their employment resource centre, but it does not count as the employers say that with respect, anyone can offer their services to volunteer, you are not being formally supervised (as its not a controlled and directed contract of service), and you have not had to compete fiercely for a formalised and paid 9-5 employed position, that we want the experience gained and demonstrated within.

I agree with the advice given about targeting applications for HR Advisor roles only in organisations that I am interested in.

However, nine times out of ten they don’t currently have any HR vacancies or are not presently recruiting at the moment. They also don’t accept speculative CVs to put on file and just tell you to sign up for regular email alerts and keep watching the website for a future vacancy which may arise.

In practice, that means waiting up to around a year to see if one comes up, which I have done, but then I never obtained an interview or a job offer after an interview due to: “overwhelming competition from other candidates who had more relevant experience, and who better fitted the needs of the position and matched the requirements of the organisation in question.”

So, it’s not easy to get any type of job and always an uncertain application numbers game and lottery which ensures that ultimately, I am the one who is never chosen and who ultimately always walks away without the winning ticket in hand, namely the job in question.

Maybe it’s because I got into HR too late at 40 as most people did enter the profession in their 20s & 30s, maybe it’s because I have slight Asperger’s Syndrome, that can manifest itself throughout the recruitment and selection process, but then, who knows?

I think however that it essentially boils down to the following two key factors:

(1) I haven’t got the experience and also can’t get the experience - the age old chicken and egg catch 22 scenario;

(2) The numbers of other candidates, often younger than myself, who somehow have and did get the experience, as they mainly got into the profession earlier than myself and who the employers naturally prefer to hire over myself.

So, where does this leave things given that all what I have tried to date has not worked or delivered an HR Advisor’s role in my case and it is admittedly not easy with the jobs as a whole either?

I also can’t get to HR Advisor level in the NHS or Civil Service either.

(1) Realistically, I am not going to break into Marketing at the age of 45, so ‘super qualifying’ myself with a CIPD Level 7 in L&D to compliment the one in HR which I have can be a start.

(2) Doing a PhD in HR alongside my day job as an HR Administrator as a compensatory substitute.

(3) No more online LinkedIn and Reed applications with the click of the bottom by sending my profile and attached CV. It does not work and deliver a job. I have done 65,000 in total U.K. & worldwide over the past four years.

(4) Highly targeted and strategic networking to tap the hidden unadvertised jobs market through a series of informational interviews.

(5) See if I can secure a role in HR in an international organisation in France, Benelux or Germany. I can speak French, Dutch and German.

(6) Using the Associate Menbership of the CIPD to join the Australian Institute of HR to see if that opens up any possible opportunities there, along with looking at possible emigration options to Canada and New Zealand (I can’t get to US as they only take STEM degree professionals with HR not in demand and a different system and employment law there).

(7) Attending more CIPD branch events and seminars, but bear in mind that I can’t start pestering or asking the people who I meet there for a job. They will tell me that’s it’s not the appropriate venue / forum for that and like all the other candidates, I need to go through mainstream recruitment channels .

There we have it then alongside continuing in my present role.

Just to finally add, I think that ultimately and welcome to the adult world, we don’t always happen to get what we want in life despite our very best efforts. People either get certain things in life or not, and if you can’t, you can’t.

I also understand that it can be frustrating to read this but I have tried every possible avenue and approach but still can’t get the job etc. 

Perhaps the answer is that it’s just not meant to be and I will find out in the future why that was the case.

Kind regards

André