Hi James

An all too familiar scenario I’m afraid. I was in your position back in 2010. Tail end of the crash, with a brand new post grad in hr,now the level 7.
I undertook a successful career change from senior operational management to full time hr. It absolutely is possible, but you have to be patient. Your first job offer will come from either someone like me or someone else that truly believes having other experiences benefits our profession, and pragmatic outlook. Please review all of the feedback above, what I’d also do is reach out to some public sector orgs to gain some work experience, this will (as in my case) was all unpaid, but you get to add it on your cv.

In reply to James:

Thank you for your empathy and suggestion. I will certainly look into doing that.

It fills me with a calming perspective that I'm not alone in this type of situation, but equally frustrates me that this is allowed to continue after so many years.

For all intents and purposes the CIPD relates to the work of administration.... and in this instance they seem to be failing at the very same thing.

In reply to James Webber:

Hi James thanks for posting and sorry to hear you're having such a frustrating experience getting a role in your preferred profession. You've got some great guidance here from HR practitioners but have you given the CIPD team a ring lately to discuss? www.cipd.co.uk/.../contact

Your local branch should also be a good source of information and a great place to network. At the moment face to face meetings are not happening but there are a lot of virtual meetings going on. Johanna Social Media and Communities team.

In reply to James Webber:

Hi James,

I would suggest that you do not put a CIPD level on your CV but that you state that you have a degree in HR, that will mean more to a prospective employer. It could be confusing to say that you have a level 6 CIPD qualification which does not exist as you say.

I would also suggest potentially looking into completing a CIPD Level 7 qualification, then you can be very confident about the qualification that you have and clearly explain that to employers.

In reply to Charmaine Greaves:

Hi Charmaine

That is exactly what I was thinking: James should just tell people he has a degree in HR. There's no need to attach a label to the degree that confuses people.

@James - if I interviewed someone who said he had a level 7 qualification when he didn't, I would not be making a job offer. Also, one of the essential skills in HR is taking what can be complex information and translating it into language people can understand and that offers a practical route forward. The impression I get from your thread, however, is that you revel in creating confusion and tying people up in pointless arguments. I could be very wrong about that. I have never met you and I'm only describing the impression I have picked up from this thread but you might find it useful to know that is how you have come across to one of your readers.

In reply to James Webber:

James

Don't despair - I've been there too. I made a move from a trainer and went and did my DPM in my 40's. I too couldn't get a job, and at one IPD affair I was politely told that at my age!!! I would not get one either. Indeed I was later turned down by my own county council, and this caused me a huge amount of anger as the person who interviewed me later told one of her fellow employees that she didn't want someone who had more qualifications and someone who was older than her, reporting to her.

Now there's two sides to this. Skill, Understanding & Ability is one and on the other side, the ability to persuade someone that you are the sort of person they will employ.

In spite of all the talk about 'competency' interviewing and so on, the most important skill is the latter, the soft skill of saying exactly the right thing, in exactly the right tone at exactly the right time. And that's got little or nothing to do with hard skills!. Now I'm not suggesting you are in anyway lacking any particular skill, but from my own experience following my being told I won't get a job, it simply made me determined to continue knocking on doors. And from experience if you knock on enough doors one will open and the person who thinks you are just what they want - and you are in!!

I'm crap at being interviewed by the way. But I also won't give up and blame it on other people all the time. Ultimately you cannot change other people - only yourself!  So don't despair - just keep knocking on doors and perhaps get some feedback on your performance when being interviewed. All job searches start with knocking on doors and most end up with just the one opening - and thats the very last door you knock on.

Good l;uck!

In reply to James Webber:

In addition to the issues identified by colleagues above, I think you, like many other people with aspirations to progress in HR, are running into the two underlying problems that can make getting one's first established position difficult. These are nothing to do with "blacklists" so forget the conspiracy theories; they are not due to flaws in the educational system's methods of comparing dissimilar forms of skill, knowledge and competence, and most particularly they are not a flaw within our profession toward which the comment: "What the hell? is either appropriate or justified.

HR, like any other business function, is expected to be both effective and cost efficient. In addition, not being a regulated profession means that Company SMTs can choose/impose their own standards on the HR provision they want (or think they want).

In simple terms that means that no company is going to take on someone who is (in their opinion) overqualified for a role because either a) That person is somehow "flawed" in their competence so unable to get roles at the levels they seem to be suited for; b) They are looking for a short-time L3-5 "roost" while they look for something more to their liking, or c) They want to get their feet under the desk and then demand more money/a more senior position; including possibly that of the person doing the recruiting! (A potential also noted by David, above). So your L7 application goes in the bin.

Equally, because there is no formally regulated "structure" to the professional competence "required" to take HR roles of a given level , or in organisations of a given size, many organisations will still appoint "HR" applicants with no qualifications at all, or side-step someone from finance or an administrative clerical role (or maybe the guy sweeping the car-park) to "run HR". There is nothing stopping them, any more than there is anything stopping those with no practical employee-relations experience whatsoever walking out of Uni' today, shiny new L6-7 or equivalent in their hand, and setting up tomorrow as an "HR Consultant". (Read these very pages for some examples).

(That "side-stepping" tendency also explaining how people taking on a sales or finance job get "promoted" into HR.... Nor because they're qualified for the role, but perhaps because they're not very good at selling or counting beans!).

HR, well practiced, is not evaluated in terms of academic knowledge or qualification, but in Competence: The balance of both K&U and interpersonal experience relevant to the workplace (but not necessarily only from HR roles) that enables the interactions between issues such as Employment law, company policy, Equality, H&S, and all the rest to be created and utilised flexibly, sometimes sensitively, sometimes firmly, to interface the Company's objectives with those strange and unpredictable beings called "people" (Including ourselves) who it needs to achieve them.

So your problem is not anyone giving the recruiting manger a black-ball or nudge-nudge to say "not him", nor is it the Profession, Hell-worthy or not, it is far more likely to be that you are not tailoring your applications to the roles you are applying for, but rather seeking to promote your superiority of skills above other applicants instead. (Often a very different presentation). So the employer sees your qualifications and (assumes) they do not fit the job they want done; or sees your apparent lack of HR "hands on" experiences as limiting to what they need; In the same way that they would not buy a Rolls Royce as a delivery-van, or buy a tatty-Transit for the MD to use as their personal transport.

...to Hell or anywhere else.

P

In reply to James Webber:

I've seen quite a few posts on these forums of people being frustrated that they have the right qualification for the job, but are not getting anywhere with it. In my personal experience (and I appreciate this is not everyone's!), qualifications don't tend to count for much apart from in certain organisations where there is a requirement for a box to be ticked, and even then it is often "or equivalent" which I would think should be covered by a degree in HR. I would look at what else is on your CV and application forms, and try to see it from the recruiter's point of view.

When I was only just working on my Level 3, I managed to get an interview for a high level HR role based on key achievements on my CV and a passionate cover letter. I didn't get any further than first interview because I was really aiming a bit high and didn't have a breadth of knowledge and experience to deal with everything the organisation needed, but I think I've gained this as much from several years' work as from completing further qualifications. My point is that 'only' being Level 3 didn't really hold me back in that case.

Even if you've had to work in roles that pay the bills rather than being passionate about them, can you define things that you've excelled at or that are relevant to an HR position within them? Can you find ways to link your achievements to to what the job ad is asking for, even if it's in terms of personality traits rather than technical details?

Also, in terms of the value for money provided by CIPD, for me personally it's worth it for these forums! I work in a small company, and I have posted on here for advice on my own dilemmas but more often I read with interest about issues at other workplaces, and learn from more experienced community members about how to deal with a whole variety of things I've never encountered myself yet!

I'm not looking for a job at the moment but I absolutely think that if I was, I could use a lot of the knowledge from these forums to help me!

In reply to Elizabeth Divver:

I appreciate the irony in replying (because I am essentially confirming your theory, but if I can't defend myself who will?), however I am very good at understanding systems/processes and making improvements, hence why I like working in HR.
However, when I can't understand something I ask for advice and guidance (unless I can figure it out for myself) so that I can understand and move forward. Hence my initial post.

So the belief that I "revel in... confusion" is untrue. In fact it's the complete opposite.

If HR is "taking what can be complex information and translating it into language people can understand and that offers a practical route forward" then why am I being given a range of answers to my query?

I suppose the easiest reason is that because the the subject matters is confusing, thus my own confusion and frustration are valid feelings to have.
Also, what you may think are "pointless arguments" tie into my posts' narrative; I want to understand. If something doesn't I continuing asking until I do.

In reply to David Perry:

Thank you for taking the time to respond and for your kind words of motivation.

It is greatly appreciated.

In reply to Peter:

Well that was a very informing and amusing read.

Many thanks for your thoughts. I'll be sure to take them onboard.

In reply to Polly:

Many thanks for your feedback Polly.
Very enlightening indeed.

In reply to James Webber:

Thank you for your acknowledgment James. 'Always pleased to pass on amusing reflections from my thirty-odd years of modestly successful practice, to those who see our profession as a confusing "hell". :-)

P

In reply to James Webber:

"If HR is "taking what can be complex information and translating it into language people can understand and that offers a practical route forward" then why am I being given a range of answers to my query?"

I guess I see a difference here between advising managers and organisations where it is clear there is one right answer or a range of right answers and our job as HR professionals is to clearly outline the potential route(s) and risks to those right answers for the organisation and managers to choose as opposed to advising someone on a career path where the destination could be as movable as the route. Hence the range of different answers - we've all had very different journeys to get to where we are and all we can share is our own experiences. In our HR professional work, we have a route map in terms of the legal framework and best practice - that doesn't exist in advising someone about their career choices. ;-) I don't think there is one right route into HR - it's a balance made up of qualifications, experience, attitude and approach, and a bit of luck and tenacity. Things like networking, contributing to and learning from these forums, attending branch meetings, volunteering can all add to that experience and help make your CV look attractive but ultimately there isn't a prescribed recipe that can be followed that will reliably give the desired outcome.

I can tell you my route into HR - five years in a HR admin role, with a day release level 7 qualification, 2 years as a HR Advisor, 11 years as a HR Analyst, 2 years in IT, a short foray into a GDPR role, followed by coming back to a HR Adviser role but that probably won't help you. I took as risk moving out of HR, found it wasn't for me and then had to take another risk by moving from a permanent job to a temporary contract to get back into HR - I applied for an awful lot of jobs over that time and
then ended up taking a part time role just because it was permanent and was a good generalist role. I was lucky in finding a boss who was keen for me to take on as much as I wanted to in that role, so it has become full time and I get a lot exposure to strategic work as well as the day to day operational. So there was a real dose of luck there for me because I took a risk and compromised what I was looking for. I almost didn't apply for it, because it was part time but I would have missed out on a great job!

But my route isn't going to be your route, James. Only you can find your route and the best advice I can give is don't give up. Eventually it will happen - with a lot of trying, the right attitude and a little bit of luck.

I know the feeling. I have a Masters Degree in HRM and level 7 CIPD, I've applied for at least 50 positions in the past 3weeks and got nothing, most employers dont even respond with a generic email?? Now that I find infuriating, in the 21st century, age of technology and employers still don't respond to an application with a generic email.