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'Dismissed on the grounds of redundancy'

Mark

Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this or if the public asking questions of the CIPD community in this way is not on.

I would be grateful for some advice please.

I am a Podiatrist working in the NHS. I have been in the same place of work for 23 years although I dropped 2 days a few years ago to work part time in another trust.

I am currently band 7 (in both jobs)  and have been for about 20 years. I specialise in musculoskeletal conditions and minor surgery. All my training (including MSc) and experience is in that area.

My department is being restructured and moving over exclusively to high risk foot care (diabetes work) something I have no specialist knowledge or interest in. I was offered an interview as Band 8 team lead which I declined and asked to apply for a band 7 diabetes lead role. Even though I don't have the diabetes experience I interviewed and the correct person got the job (not me).

With the restructure my post has been made redundant.

In the last week of consultation my junior colleague handed in his notice so I was offered that job, band 6 diabetes specialist despite being told that there would be no cross band matching and any match would have to be 75% similar. It is a lower role with less status and responsibility and a completely alien area of my profession. I have been offered pay protection for 3 years and training. I am the only person in the department negatively affected (I also happen to be the most qualified).

I took legal advice from a solicitor and union. I was told that proving that SAE is not suitable is hard and legal representation is expensive. As a result my union declined to help me and I can not afford the legal costs. So at this point my choice is to take the SAE or leave. I had 2 meetings without prejudice at my request.

I declined the SAE (the job is really not for me) and as a result I have been given notice of dismissal on the grounds of redundancy. No package has been offered obviously. I have asked to not serve my full notice as i am finding the whole process stressful and prefer to be out. We have compromised on 1 month notice rather than three.

After deciding that I cant go forward with any legal challenge I was surprised in the formal meeting to be told that I had the right to appeal. I hadn't considered an appeal. I was told that this was mainly to appeal the consultation process (that has generally been handled correctly).

The questions I have are;

How does an appeal differ from a tribunal?

Is it normal to self represent at an appeal (can afford legal fees)?

Is the suitability of SAE something that is suitable for appeal?

What are the chances (obviously without know the intimate details of the case)?

With huge thanks in advance and apologies again if this is against forum etiquette etc.

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  • Hi Mark

    An appeal would be a good place to challenge the SAE - you wouldn't be entitled to legal representation at an appeal, but your union should be willing to represent you.

    It's difficult to advise on the prospect of success, but on the face of it, your original role and the one offered appear to be very different.

    Emily
  • in reply to Emily
    They are dismissing you so you have the right to appeal
    You need to decide what you are hoping to get out of it (it is far from obvious to me that there is no package. They may not be generous but cannot evade statutory payments/responsibilities.)
    IMHO you should be seeking at the very least a statutory redundancy payment
    There are posts on this subject and the opinion of those in the know is that the test is largely subjective ie employee friendly so it makes sense for them to settle it rather than go to Tribunal and lose
  • in reply to Peter Stanway
    They have stated that there is no package as I have turned down SAE thus have effectively handed in my notice.
  • in reply to Peter Stanway

    Yes, sheer twaddle.

    Mark, I'd suggest you go back to your union and ask to speak to someone more senior. The person you spoke to has misinformed you.

    As Peter S. says, if you search these threads you will find many threads on the definition of suitable alternative employment. Here's a recent one: www2.cipd.co.uk/.../67213

    If you are made to leave without a redundancy package, you would be able to make a claim to a tribunal and sue for your statutory redundancy pay. However, you have an opportunity to make your case at the appeal hearing. Let's hope they listen to reason, but if they don't, all is far from lost. As you may have heard, there is no longer a fee for making a claim and this would not be a particularly tricky claim to bring. But before this got anywhere near a court room, you would be able to use the Acas early conciliation service to make your case. Even though the advice you can get from Acas is variable, they really ought to be able to inform your employer that it is largely up to the employee to decide whether alternative employment is suitable or not.

    Have you been offered the right to take a companion into the appeal with you? Ideally, you would take a TU official who actually knew what he or she was talking about.

    I think you have been treated shamefully and I am sure other people will chip in on this thread with more advice.

    My very best wishes to you for a successful outcome.

  • in reply to Elizabeth Divver
    Crossed with Ann, but we are all on the same wavelength.
  • in reply to Elizabeth Divver

    Unfortunately my union rep is untrained as yet. The area rep was absolutely dismissive. Spoke to the union lead who was also dismissive. Mentioned the ACAS early conciliation service to the union head. I was told to drop it and move on. I'm not keen on getting my unions help after that.

    I have spoken to ACAS who seem to be the other way inclined recommending I go to tribunal. I wouldn't have representation as the union have said no as have no win no fee solicitors. It is too much of a grey area/gamble for them.

    I didn't take a union rep to my meetings for the above reasons.

    This is why I am interested in appeal with self representation.

    I have arranged a leaving date now (late Feb) and in the interim have sorted out further employment (lower grade but closer to home and more appropriate work to my skills). I hope this won't affect my chances of/at appeal.

    At the meeting I asked if 'dismissal on the grounds of redundancy' meant no package as I had refused the SAE offered. I was told categorically no package.

    At this point I just want to leave. Its really soul destroying coming in day after day even with the end in sight. 

  • in reply to Mark
    Mark
    'dismissal on the grounds of redundancy' says they are terminating your employment because of a redundancy and therefore you have not resigned? They've also given you the right to appeal? Therefore your appeal is two fold for me: 1. they have dismissed you, acknowledged in the correspondence you have received, therefore you have not resigned and are entitled to receive your redundancy payment due 2. the SAE wasn't suitable because of xxxx
    Good luck, they have treated you appallingly.
    Ann
  • in reply to Mark
    Mark

    It frankly isn't that much of a grey area. Its pretty black and white and there is lots of case law that makes it even more so.

    Its at its simplest level a two step process,

    1) Is the job suitable - this should take into account grade, status, skills, professional level, pay etc etc

    2) If it is suitable was the refusal reasonable or unreasonable in all the circumstances.

    Purely from what you have told us the actions of your Trust fail on the first test (it is clearly a lower grade job , less status, different professional skill set) and even if its didn't it would potentially fail on the second.

    I am surprised at the actions of your Trade Union based on what you have told us. I would be considering making a complaint against them for lack of support. IN addition based on what you have said the no win / no fees position is surprising as well.
Reply
  • in reply to Mark
    Mark

    It frankly isn't that much of a grey area. Its pretty black and white and there is lots of case law that makes it even more so.

    Its at its simplest level a two step process,

    1) Is the job suitable - this should take into account grade, status, skills, professional level, pay etc etc

    2) If it is suitable was the refusal reasonable or unreasonable in all the circumstances.

    Purely from what you have told us the actions of your Trust fail on the first test (it is clearly a lower grade job , less status, different professional skill set) and even if its didn't it would potentially fail on the second.

    I am surprised at the actions of your Trade Union based on what you have told us. I would be considering making a complaint against them for lack of support. IN addition based on what you have said the no win / no fees position is surprising as well.
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