'Dismissed on the grounds of redundancy' - Feedback - Community Feedback

95 'Dismissed on the grounds of redundancy'

Mark | 0 Posts

26 Jan, 2018 19:24

Apologies if this is the wrong place to put this or if the public asking questions of the CIPD community in this way is not on.

I would be grateful for some advice please.

I am a Podiatrist working in the NHS. I have been in the same place of work for 23 years although I dropped 2 days a few years ago to work part time in another trust.

I am currently band 7 (in both jobs) and have been for about 20 years. I specialise in musculoskeletal conditions and minor surgery. All my training (including MSc) and experience is in that area.

My department is being restructured and moving over exclusively to high risk foot care (diabetes work) something I have no specialist knowledge or interest in. I was offered an interview as Band 8 team lead which I declined and asked to apply for a band 7 diabetes lead role. Even though I don't have the diabetes experience I interviewed and the correct person got the job (not me).

With the restructure my post has been made redundant.

In the last week of consultation my junior colleague handed in his notice so I was offered that job, band 6 diabetes specialist despite being told that there would be no cross band matching and any match would have to be 75% similar. It is a lower role with less status and responsibility and a completely alien area of my profession. I have been offered pay protection for 3 years and training. I am the only person in the department negatively affected (I also happen to be the most qualified).

I took legal advice from a solicitor and union. I was told that proving that SAE is not suitable is hard and legal representation is expensive. As a result my union declined to help me and I can not afford the legal costs. So at this point my choice is to take the SAE or leave. I had 2 meetings without prejudice at my request.

I declined the SAE (the job is really not for me) and as a result I have been given notice of dismissal on the grounds of redundancy. No package has been offered obviously. I have asked to not serve my full notice as i am finding the whole process stressful and prefer to be out. We have compromised on 1 month notice rather than three.

After deciding that I cant go forward with any legal challenge I was surprised in the formal meeting to be told that I had the right to appeal. I hadn't considered an appeal. I was told that this was mainly to appeal the consultation process (that has generally been handled correctly).

The questions I have are;

How does an appeal differ from a tribunal?

Is it normal to self represent at an appeal (can afford legal fees)?

Is the suitability of SAE something that is suitable for appeal?

What are the chances (obviously without know the intimate details of the case)?

With huge thanks in advance and apologies again if this is against forum etiquette etc.

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David | 0 Posts

5 Apr, 2018 00:51

In reply to Robey:
Hi Mark

I wholly concur with Robey's observations: if they do find against you, then based on the facts you have provided they're either ignorant of employment law or thinking they can beat you into submission.

And if that does indeed happen, then you'll be doing yourself down not to take them towards a Tribunal Claim: ideally via your trade union but if no alternative, just do it yourself: you don't really need to pay a lawyer or thankfully now court etc fees and plenty help available here and if it ever gets to a Tribunal, Employment Judges normally go out of their way to ensure that self represented claimants are not disadvantaged.
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Mark | 0 Posts

6 Apr, 2018 19:30

So, at this point I still haven't heard.

The appeal was on the 15th March and the associated paperwork advised me to expect a result on that day. I understood that more info was needed and the result had to be deferred. I was told that I should hear within 5 working days.

I received an email with attached letter from the HR rep on the panel on the 6th working day after the appeal. I was advised that the result would have to be deferred further and that I should receive a result by the 30th April (Good Friday).

Nothing. On the 4th April I emailed the HR rep and got an automatic reply advising me that she was on leave until the 9th April. Later that day (9.45pm) I got a reply from the char of the panel advising that I should receive their response by friday - today. As yet nothing.

I have been on leave this week and most of it seems to have been spent waiting for an email and being jittery whenever I check my phone for one.

It seems that my feelings are low down on the general agenda. Just a prompt courtesy email to inform me of the delay would be helpful. Given that the main reasons of rejecting the SAE was my feelings towards the job and my feelings seem to have been forgotten about means that I am starting to lose faith in this appeals process.

I am tempted to inform them of this telling them that I have lost faith in the process and threaten to withdraw and move straight on to tribunal. This would obviously be a stupid thing to do as I cant go to tribunal because I cant afford the legal representation. Just getting angry now.

Do I just wait? What to do next?
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Elizabeth Divver | 0 Posts

6 Apr, 2018 20:46

In reply to Mark:
Hi Mark

There are a couple of possibilities. They could be scurrying madly around behind the scenes trying to come up with a way to get out of the hole they find themselves in. As the obvious exit route is to overturn the dismissal and they haven't done that, you could see the delay as a bad sign. However, there is an even more depressing possibility, and that is that they're all enjoying a lovely holiday and are not thinking about work at all but will pick this up again when they are all back. There may be other possibilities and we may never find out what's going on, but I do sympathise with you. This must be immensely wearing.

Whatever is going on, please revise your opinion that you can't go to tribunal because you can't afford representation. When the Employment Tribunals (or Industrial Tribunals as they were then) were set up, it was with the explicit intention that procedure would be simpler and less formal than other courts (e.g. no wigs or gowns) so that people would be able to represent themselves. I don't want to pretend that bringing a claim is easy or stress-free, but please take on David's comments above.

Having said that, if you have exhausted your union's complaints process it would be worth checking for other sources of support in your local area. There may be legal advice centres that offer a free service. Usually organisations of this type only have the budget to take on a certain number of cases per year, but you should still see what is available. I'd start off by talking to the Citizen's Advice Bureau as they may know what is available locally.
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Peter Stanway | 0 Posts

8 Apr, 2018 16:21

In reply to Elizabeth Divver:
There is a newish book about going to tribunal yourself but there is plenty of support available here and as David observed the courts have a legal duty to help unrepresented claimants
I call it the referee playing for the other side!
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Mark | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 18:07

In reply to Peter Stanway:
Didn't win.
All parts to the appeal were rejected.
Would it be appropriate to copy in the response letter (with names etc redacted)?
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David | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 18:44

In reply to Mark:
Yes please, Mark

- and would most strongly recommend that as advised previously you initiate a Tribunal claim.

I for one would be more than happy to help you with doing this, if you contact me via private message
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Mark | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 19:19

In reply to David:

Edited by Steve / Community Manager. See my post below.

.............................................

My main issues with this [decision]:

1. It states that I had not informed of my dyslexia. I stated that I had. I also stated that I had not been offered a work place assessment. I also went on to say that I don't like to be treated differently and that I would not take on a role in which I would need a lot of support. It would not be good for me or the dept. The band 8a role requires a lot of reading and writing of policy and pathway.

2. I turned down the paed/footwear job because the footwear part requires a specific qualification that I don't have. This was stated and omitted from the response making it seem like I turned it down on a whim.

3. I conceded that I could do the job with training (although I don't agree that 1-2 days training is enough to be competent at this role) although as it is substantially different from my previous role I don't see why I should be forced into it (apart from avoiding redundancy payment).

4. I stated that I turned down the trial period for the B6 post as I knew the role and I wan't sure how a month in post would change my opinion. This has been overlooked.

5. With the loss of status they have not acknowledged that I was the only person negatively affected by the changes. I had been advised off the record by HR that this was important. I stated it many times. It has been omitted.

6. All the parts in 'point 3' that refer back to the inaccurate comments in 'point 1'.

7. The only person they sought advice from re. suitability is employed by their trust. They have acknowledged that I could do the job with training. They have not sought an opinion from another B7 Specialist MSK Podiatrist.

8. According to the info I have received from here, the trusts 'Management of Staff Affected by Change Policy' regarding de-banding is in contrast to the law.

I am not sure if I am just ranting at this point.

Someone said earlier that the ref is playing for the other team. It does feel that way given that it is the trusts policy that guides them.

With thanks to all
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Steve Bridger | 0 Posts

Community Manager

11 Apr, 2018 19:42

In reply to Mark:
Hi Mark... you didn't give me a chance to respond, but as it's a long and detailed ruling / decision, I'm going to make the call of removing it... but will make it available to those that ask / have supported you through your case.

In the first instance, David.

Hope that's OK?
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Mark | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 19:47

In reply to David:
Thats a rally kind offer David
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Mark | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 19:51

In reply to Steve Bridger:
I'm really sorry about this Steve. It was done in haste and in the heat of disappointment and the feeling of being rail roaded. An honest mistake.
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Mark | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 19:52

With thanks
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Steve Bridger | 0 Posts

Community Manager

11 Apr, 2018 19:52

In reply to Mark:
I understand. No harm done at all. I've emailed David with the detail.
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Peter | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 20:26

In reply to Steve Bridger:
With Mark's permission I would also like a copy Steve. I have only just come across this thread but as you know I worked for the NHS for many years and have family still currently working in its professional roles. I may therefore be in a position to offer some additional "bridging" insights (knowing both HR and NHS systems thoroughly) to Mark and/or David, should they wish me to do so.

Reading through, it seems some things never change!

P
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Mark | 0 Posts

11 Apr, 2018 20:30

In reply to Peter:
Peter, I would be grateful if you did. Any input would be helpful.

With thanks

Mark
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David | 0 Posts

12 Apr, 2018 01:24

In reply to Mark:
Hi Mark

Where are you now formally as regards your employment and it’s terminstion?

Your employers appear to misunderstand that even though they can seek to withhold a statutory redundancy payment from you on the grounds that you unreasonably refused suitable alternative employment thst doesn’t alter the fact that you have to be dismissed fairly and in accordance with your contractual etc rights and entitlements.

How long is your continuous employment and how much notice of dismissal are you entitled to?

Your employers still have to dismiss you for reason of redundancy: it is eg total nonsense for them to try to assert that you have ‘been deemed to have resigned’ or anything similar just because you declined their offer of alternative employment. Your old / former post is redundant, so the reason for your *dismissal* by your employers should be redundancy and you should have been served formal notice of dismissal and either allowed to work it out or be paid in lieu.
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