In reply to Andre:

In short, the issue here was that I could not bridge the experience divide and experience disconnect from HR Administrator to HR Advisor level.

In reply to Keith:

Dear Keith,

Many thanks for your response.

I already embarked in a mid career change from Law to HR at 40 so let’s cut to the chase here. Although it is unlawful, they don’t say it openly and you can’t prove it, was my age an issue here?

I raise this question as I see a clear stereotypical pattern that the vast majority of people got into HR in their 20s and 30s which I do not fit.

I also know someone who works in retail management who told me that unofficially, unless you are already an experienced hire, they don’t bother making people Manager’s over the age of 35 and just keep them on the shop floor.

With regard to applications and interviews, I can get a few interviews and they are very impressed with my credentials, but I think it’s the catch 22 or chicken and egg scenario here that you already need HR Advisor experience to become one, very few Trainee or Junior roles exist and they don’t recognise my volunteering as a paid 9-5. In short, they want the exact and perfect matching package according to their needs and won’t show flexibility or deviate from that, even if they need to leave the vacancy open.

Kind regards

André

In reply to Andre:

I don’t have and can’t get the relevant experience in a 9-5 in short.

In reply to Andre:

I have tried to cut tobthe chase all along. On thuscsnd your other threads.

Whilst undoubtedly your age/experience/qualifications profile will be a factor for some I do think one of the big factors in securing a role is approach and communications in applying both verbally in person and in writing.

Given that you are now going into marketing I fear that will be an even bigger challenge for anyone looking to make the move you are.

Good luck!

In reply to Keith:

I gather then that the conventional wisdom is that one cannot or should not embark on a career sector change, or if they do, they need to be prepared to start out again at the very bottom, ie an HRD could not become a Marketing Director as they don’t have the track record of relevant matching experience and would effectively need to go in on the level that of an intern or a Marketing Assistant.

Thus, the job market is less flexible and also ageist at the same time, and your job title also defines largely who and what you are.

In reply to Andre:

Finally for today as I have a role to commute to now, I also think that prople largely carry professional labels with them and can be very easily locked into a role and on a particular level based on their experience, ie you are an HR Administrator, I am an HRBP, just focus on your role, the day job in hand and don’t start being a dreamer or try and get above your station etc. You are largely what your job title says what you are in a hierarchy.

Could it have also been the case that in reality and practice, there were not actually so many opportunities and vacancies for progression in the HR profession that I initially thought there were and most people do actually stay on the same level or can either get the role or not?

After all, if everyone is or wants to be an HRD, where are all the HR Advisors coming from? 

There always comes a time when it’s either ‘now or never,’ and I feel that I have reached that time, two days short of my 45th birthday.

What is the point in going on with this for the  next 4 years and putting my weekends into applications when they just send me automated rejection emails in return saying that other candidates had more closer matching experience to suit and fit our business needs and the requirements of the role than yourself.

In reply to Andre:

Andre

To be honest I am not sure you are taking in what I or colleagues have said on this thread where it differs from your own narrative.

People can and do make career changes into HR and out of it.

People can and do enter the profession in their forties and make a success of it.

People can and do move up from HR Admin roles even though the competition is hard.

People can and go even manage to break out of the NHS into the private sector.

But you so far haven’t been able to. So I go back to my Option “0” in my first post on this thread back in the first week of November. If you want to succceed in this career or in any other it’s about ensuring you present your own narrative in the most compelling way possible online, on LinkedIn, in your applications and where lucky enough at interview.

Just pressing “apply” on LinkedIn 30 or 40 times a week isn’t a compelling or successful strategy. Taking the time to craft 3 or 4 target applications might be.

As you move into marketing you will need to address the same issues ( and now also explain your brief stay in HR after law) tovany recruiters. I would spend the next few weeks working on that narrative and working on a compelling pitch for recruiters.

Good luck.

In reply to Keith:

Dear Keith,

Many thanks for your response.

I fully understand the option 0 and that it also works, is not impossible for and can also deliver for other people. In my case however it does not.

I can and do get job interviews which I attend and the feedback afterwards is very impressive. They liked and enjoyed meeting me as a candidate, were extremely impressed with my credentials and I also do  not do, say or behave in anyway inappropriately throughout the process.

However, when it comes down to the final crunch, I cannot actually convert job interviews into job offers, as they always go for or with another candidate instead, and the general type of feedback I get is although the lines of:

“We very much enjoyed meeting with you in person, considered you an outstanding candidate and very highly impressed with your experience, skills and qualifications to date that we also found very interesting.

However, despite of that, we regret to inform you that we are unable to offer you employment as during the process we identified a small number of other candidates whose overall credentials date were a slightly closer fit and better match to what we were looking for.”

I get that every single time after an interview so here we are and straight from the horses mouth.

I also pass many interviews, tests and assessment centres at top scores, but they still at the end of the day opt for and choose another candidate.

Thus, I am ticking the right boxes to get the interview, behave, act and communicate entirely appropriately throughout the whole process and they also consider me an excellent candidate, but no job offer ultimately materialises from it all.

All what I can say is that it is a highly competitive arena, they seek an almost identical 100% match and that there are also always other candidates out there who pip you to the post, being largely an application numbers game and lottery.

I also do strategic targeted networking to tap the hidden advertised jobs marked by sending speculative letters to organisations.

The ones who respond tell me to look and apply online or register for vacancy email alerts, say that they cannot accept CVs or that they don’t have any vacancies at present but will keep me on file for future consideration.

Kind regards

André

In reply to Andre:

It’s essentially a type of systematic and structural issue here if you cannot ‘break in.’

Many organisations hire only at certain times when vacancies exist, but in all honestly here, it may come down to personality. They are interested in me, liked and enjoyed meeting me and also consider I have outstanding credentials but still reject the person behind the paper, application or CV.

I would say, as I have slight Asperger’s Syndrome (neurodiversity), that if my overall style, approach, subtleties of interpersonal interaction can come across as a bit different, untypical or unique in style that they
don’t quite get, understand, can interpret or put their finger on, compared to all the other candidates they see on the day, that this can also add an extra dimension and spike to the Recruitment process and how the existing team would take and find me if they did have me onboard.

Any thoughts?

In reply to Andre:

Andre

To be honest the feedback "I can and do get job interviews which I attend and the feedback afterwards is very impressive. They liked and enjoyed meeting me as a candidate, were extremely impressed with my credentials and I also do not do, say or behave in anyway inappropriately throughout the process." is probably the feedback that 90%+ of organisations give to any unsuccessful candidates (if they give any at all) as it allows them to exit the process without risking saying anything that might come back to haunt them.

If you are getting interviews in sufficient numbers and not converting them then for me it IS your interview style that is the break point regardless of the standardised risk adverse feedback you are getting.

In reply to Keith:

Have you sought out any interview coaching or similar? I coach women returners to work for a charity, and it's really positive. Having neutral and independent feedback might really help you to communicate your skills and experience in a way that gets more positive results.

In reply to Keith:

I spoke to a friend (who is not in HR) about this issue and they gave me the best possible, practical and realistic advice.

Welcome to the real and adult world, we don’t always get what we want and if you can’t ever get an HR Advisor’s role, you can’t and have at least tried your very best.

At least I have a job as an HR Administrator that pays the bills instead of being long term unemployed and should learn to be content and grateful for having that at least, despite having a Level 7.

Organisations have the right to choose their own staff team and if they don’t want to take you for wherever reason, tough and that’s life.

Perhaps option 1 is thus the most realistic and practical to follow and make a long term career out of being an HR Administrator, whilst doing a PhD on the side to show that I still have certain abilities despite the job title.

Any thoughts and what makes you feel that Marketing would be anymore difficult? 

In reply to Andre:

Or was that just the answer you wanted to hear?

In reply to Andre:

Andre

This is not scientific but my sense is that marketing (it its truest sense) is in general more prone to ageism than HR. Most of the careers I have seen in marketing tend to be 20/30's and early 40's then often people go off and do something else either working for themselves of a different field. Not to say there aren't very successful people older in Marketing roles but I think it would be far harder to break into.

I also think given what you have said about your approach to job searching and interviews that breaking into a true marketing role (as opposed to just being an administrator in a different department) will be quite challenging for you.

If being a HR Administrator and getting a PhD alongside it will make you happy and give you satisfaction then go for it. As I think I said earlier (or on another of your threads) you are an experiment of one and need to work out what works for you.

But this morning you were adamant that you were giving up on HR and going down the marketing path, this afternoon you are considering staying in HR but doing a PhD. So I think finding a trusted coach or confident who can help you walk step by step through your choices, who can help you realise your true strengths and weaknesses and who can help you decide on the right path would be time well spent.

Best of luck

keith

In reply to Keith:

Having realistically looked into it over the weekend, I can’t get into marketing at the age of 45. It may take years to break in and also involve years of trying to secure unpaid internships to gain enough experience to secure a paid entry level role, whilst paying for CIM studies alongside that with no guarantee of ever actually getting any position at all.

So, living now in the real world and as I can’t become an HR Practitioner, I see the final options as in order of realistic sequence:

(1) Staying and doing what I am doing now and making a long term career as an HR Administrator;

(2) A lateral move by combining both the CIPD Level 7 in HR and L&D to become an L&D Administrator;

(3) Trying to get into freelance training, HR and L&D Consulting;

(4) HR Academia with a PhD;

(5) Leaving the profession and training for a new field more open to mid career changers.

Impasse is the word to use here, but I feel that the real root and underlying cause is that age old catch 22 cycle that you can’t get a job without experience and experience without a job, and now require experience on the next level to move to the next level.

There are no automatic guarantees and vertical progression is never a given.

Finally and on a separate note, although it is not an issue for me at all, I see a clear pattern in my present role that I am the only male HR Administrator in a team of 15, one of the oldest and all the other males are Advisors, Managers or HRBP’s. Any conclusions I should draw from that?