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Impossible with a capital 'i' to advance in the HR profession?

Andre

You have the CIPD 7, Associate Membership of the body, an MSc in International HRM, are considering a PhD in HR / Occupational Psychology and have four years experience working as an HR Administrator.

However, despite of all of that, you basically still can’t get above HR Administrator level to the next level or get an HR Advisor’s level role.

Part of the issue is that they don’t take on Trainee / Junior HR Advisor’s (or indeed Trainee / Junior HRBP’s) and you can’t get the necessary experience in an HR Administrator’s role to get the HR Advisor’s job.

You volunteer outside hours as an HR Advisor and as a CIPD Mentor, and attend all the events in your branch, but it still does not count or is officially recognised as a formal paid 9-5 role to make the cut.

It’s also one of those scenarios that it just does not ever happen for / to you how many applications you ever make, so are any of the following viable options to take instead:

(1) Come to terms with it and make a life long career as an HR Administrator instead, or as a Senior HR Administrator, aiming to be the very best that you can be at that;

(2) Pull completely out of the HR profession as a whole and change career sectors, professions and pathways, starting out again  from zero;

(3) Emigrate and see if you can get the role instead in another country in or outside the EU;

(4) Look at going self employed as an HR Consultant on the Peninsula model?

How would you personally deal with it if you faced a total brick wall blockage that despite your very best efforts, you just could not vertically progress, get on or up in the HR profession as a whole past HR Administrator?

Parents
  • Andre
    Good luck.
    In order to help you move forward if you want to contact me via the messaging thing on here I will give you an honest independent assessment of your Cv and LinkedIn presence. As a senior HR bod would see it.
    Keith
  • in reply to Keith

    Hi Keith,

    What do I click on here to message you or send my LinkedIn profile / CV etc?

    What I have at least learned with this discussion is that I am not going to get a job off LinkedIn.

    Over the past three years, I have, worldwide, made 63,500 HR and other role applications with the 1 click apply by just tapping the button and sending my profile.

    Its also far less time consuming than completing an application form one at a time, and you can also attach and send your CV along with your LinkedIn profile with the tap of the button.

    Half view it but never respond, and the other half send an automated recruiter reply back that other candidates better match the requirements of the role / experience requested by our client.

    Thousands of people worldwide view those online LinkedIn job advertisements which are also cross advertised and they are really for experienced hires with a 100% exact profile match and fit.

    I did it as I thought I could eventually ‘click myself to a new role’ if I did enough of them both globally and overtime, but never got a single interview, yet an offer out of this. 

    This experience of mine could actuality feed into a new topic that if people are not going to get a job off LinkedIn, what is it there for (ie your online CV) and how effective is it as a job searching tool.

    Having said that, one also needs to write many many blind speculative letters to companies before they would get a job using that method of approach or tapping the unadvertised hidden market as well. Most would reply that we don’t currently have any vacancies but will keep you on file for future.

    Generally, it is extremely difficult and highly competitive nowadays to actually get any type of job on any level, including working in Starbucks Coffee.

    We have never had full employment and there are always more people looking for work than vacancies available, and the employers are very selective and careful who they take, often putting up barriers along the way.

    Kind regards

    André

  • in reply to Andre
    I definitely agree that you need to largely ignore the jobs you can apply for with one click via LinkedIn. I was applying for jobs 2 years ago, after 14 years in my previous role - so I had no experience whatsoever of how recruitment works 'these days'. It was quickly clear that one-click applications don't work at all. Based on my own experience, I'd say that LinkedIn is your shop window - you need it to be clear, comprehensive and selling your 'benefits' - the things that make you stand out as a job prospect. Most recruiters will review your profile there if you apply for a job, so it's an additional resource that you can use in your favour.

    What I found still works best is taking the time to write a well-crafted application for any job you're interested in. Don't cut and paste, write with enthusiasm and knowledge about the organisation, and use plenty of examples. I know you know this, but it's worth getting a friend to read an application through to check you're selling yourself as positively as you can. If you're applying by CV, tailor your CV to each application you make (which not everyone does - we tailor the supporting letter, but it's worth tailoring the CV too). Don't use tables in your CV (I had not realised how few recruitment tracking systems can 'read' information in tables).

    I recognise that you've said that you get through to interview stage reasonably well - so you're definitely in the running for the next position. If you weren't ready for it, and they weren't willing to take on someone with your experience, you wouldn't be shortlisted. So I'd recommend again sourcing some interview coaching - from someone who will tell you directly what you need to change to become the first choice candidate.

    While I understand your frustration in not being able to progress quickly in HR, you need to sell the benefits of your previous sector experience - as others have said, it's a real strength in many areas. I think you said that your previous career was in law, and that's an industry that really only wants HR professionals that have a strong understanding of the sector. Having a strong legal knowledge/framework is also so very relevant to HR, that it's hard to see your career change as anything other than a positive element of what you'd bring to a role.

    Good luck - don't let your frustration become the story here. I think there's been a lot of very helpful advice on this thread, and I hope you'll find the right next step in 2019.
  • in reply to Andre
    I've had one job interview through LinkedIn which progressed to the second stage but I'd been offered another job that was more suitable by that stage and turned it down. This wasn't through the one click application process though, this was through networking on there - a few former colleagues shared that I was job hunting and recommended me and someone with a job vacancy saw the posts and got in touch.
    I've also had people review my LinkedIn before interviews and discuss my recommendations from colleagues with me.
    I'm not sure I'd recommend the one click application process but it can be useful for finding out about opportunities.
    I would also still recommend making sideways moves to get the experience in order to move up, or look at moving up within your own organisation when opportunities arise as they know you and what you can do.
  • in reply to Andre
    Hi André,

    Like you I struggled to break into HR. I had over 30 interviews some had three rounds with presentations and I always got the same response it came down to you and one other person. I finally landed a really good job but I had to take a break. From reading your posts I can feel the desperation in your posts of wanting to change jobs. In order to succeed, I believe if you portray you love your job and only applied because this is your dream job as love the business rather than applying for every single HR Adviser role you see. The more interviews you have the more quickly you are able to answer the questions and come across rehearsed which many interviewers do not like as feel not speaking to you but rather someone desperate for the job.

    Take a break from the job hunting love what you do and hopefully like me someone will finally see what you have to offer.
  • in reply to Lizzie
    I seem to be bucking the trend here - not only have I managed to carve out a pretty solid HR career without CIPD 5 or 7, but I also don't use LinkedIn! I have no profile. I used to, but just got a lot of requests from recruitment companies and it got annoying - plus I didn't find it really helped me with job hunting, so I deleted it. I don't think its held me back, no one has ever even asked me if I have a profile or where it is. Maybe that's changing now but for me, the shop window is still your CV and covering letter - if that is good enough it won't matter that they can't find you online.
  • in reply to Andre
    If you have made thousands of generic applications, no wonder you are feeling demoralised and no wonder you are having no success.

    André - I'm going to be blunt here, but I think your analysis of this issue as demonstrated by this thread may hint as to the reason you are not getting the job. I have got frustrated reading this thread and seeing that you don't seem to learning or listening to the good advice you have been offered.

    Your thinking seems to be very linear and black and white. You keep trying the same things and they are not working (applying for thousands of jobs via Linkedin), or you think of alternatives, but don't necessarily think them through (e.g. change of career into marketing, doing a Phd). You blame others for your failure to succeed (might be age discrimination or that you're overqualified or underexperienced or some other reason), but you are not looking closely enough at yourself and the way your present your career story and suitability to progress in HR. Members have offered you tonnes of useful advice, but you appear to be dismissing it or ignoring it.

    HR is a profession in which you need to be comfortable working in the grey. You need to be able to look at a problem and work out how you are going to solve it and you need to be flexible and adaptable when things don't go to plan. Being a good HR advisor isn't about following a process or taking linear steps. You need to deal with humans who are unpredictable and messy at the best of times. You need to listen to others and take their advice. You need to be able to read between the lines and understand the hidden meaning in stuff. You need to be able to influence others and communicate well with people.

    Your posts in this thread have not demonstrated that you can do some of these things well. Maybe this is also coming across in your applications and your interviews as well.

    I think you would benefit from building these skills before trying to apply for more HR advisory roles. Unfortunately, you can't really learn many of these skills at university or through academic qualifications and they are quite different to the skills needed to be a good HR administrator (attention to detail, accuracy, patience, process-focussed). They come from life experience and learning on the job. They come from getting things wrong and trying a new tack and they come from listening and learning from others.

    I know you are struggling to get HR advisory experience at the moment, but you can find other ways of developing these skills. Maybe a good way to develop these skills would be to volunteer with an organisation like Citizens Advice or the Samaritans, where you have to deal with difficult issues, work with people and provide advice and support. It would be good experience to talk about at interviews.
  • in reply to Lesley

    Dear Lesley,

    Many thanks for your response and helpful advice.

    I do volunteer with the Samaritans as a Listener on the phones in the evening, but they don’t actually take on HR volunteers during the day. Like the CAB who I have also made inquiries with, they have a core HR staff team based only at their Head Offices which are full time, paid and permanent and not in any of the local branches and centres around the country.

    Some other places may take on daytime HR volunteers, but I would then need to leave my paid daytime job to do that which is not a viable option either, as I can’t naturally be in two different places at the same time.

    I have been volunteering as an HR Advisor on a weekly Wednesday evening basis at the Mormon Church in London since September 2017 at their employment resource centre, but it does not count as the employers say that with respect, anyone can offer their services to volunteer, you are not being formally supervised (as its not a controlled and directed contract of service), and you have not had to compete fiercely for a formalised and paid 9-5 employed position, that we want the experience gained and demonstrated within.

    I agree with the advice given about targeting applications for HR Advisor roles only in organisations that I am interested in.

    However, nine times out of ten they don’t currently have any HR vacancies or are not presently recruiting at the moment. They also don’t accept speculative CVs to put on file and just tell you to sign up for regular email alerts and keep watching the website for a future vacancy which may arise.

    In practice, that means waiting up to around a year to see if one comes up, which I have done, but then I never obtained an interview or a job offer after an interview due to: “overwhelming competition from other candidates who had more relevant experience, and who better fitted the needs of the position and matched the requirements of the organisation in question.”

    So, it’s not easy to get any type of job and always an uncertain application numbers game and lottery which ensures that ultimately, I am the one who is never chosen and who ultimately always walks away without the winning ticket in hand, namely the job in question.

    Maybe it’s because I got into HR too late at 40 as most people did enter the profession in their 20s & 30s, maybe it’s because I have slight Asperger’s Syndrome, that can manifest itself throughout the recruitment and selection process, but then, who knows?

    I think however that it essentially boils down to the following two key factors:

    (1) I haven’t got the experience and also can’t get the experience - the age old chicken and egg catch 22 scenario;

    (2) The numbers of other candidates, often younger than myself, who somehow have and did get the experience, as they mainly got into the profession earlier than myself and who the employers naturally prefer to hire over myself.

    So, where does this leave things given that all what I have tried to date has not worked or delivered an HR Advisor’s role in my case and it is admittedly not easy with the jobs as a whole either?

    I also can’t get to HR Advisor level in the NHS or Civil Service either.

    (1) Realistically, I am not going to break into Marketing at the age of 45, so ‘super qualifying’ myself with a CIPD Level 7 in L&D to compliment the one in HR which I have can be a start.

    (2) Doing a PhD in HR alongside my day job as an HR Administrator as a compensatory substitute.

    (3) No more online LinkedIn and Reed applications with the click of the bottom by sending my profile and attached CV. It does not work and deliver a job. I have done 65,000 in total U.K. & worldwide over the past four years.


    (4) Highly targeted and strategic networking to tap the hidden unadvertised jobs market through a series of informational interviews.

    (5) See if I can secure a role in HR in an international organisation in France, Benelux or Germany. I can speak French, Dutch and German.

    (6) Using the Associate Menbership of the CIPD to join the Australian Institute of HR to see if that opens up any possible opportunities there, along with looking at possible emigration options to Canada and New Zealand (I can’t get to US as they only take STEM degree professionals with HR not in demand and a different system and employment law there).

    (7) Attending more CIPD branch events and seminars, but bear in mind that I can’t start pestering or asking the people who I meet there for a job. They will tell me that’s it’s not the appropriate venue / forum for that and like all the other candidates, I need to go through mainstream recruitment channels .

    There we have it then alongside continuing in my present role.

    Just to finally add, I think that ultimately and welcome to the adult world, we don’t always happen to get what we want in life despite our very best efforts. People either get certain things in life or not, and if you can’t, you can’t.

    I also understand that it can be frustrating to read this but I have tried every possible avenue and approach but still can’t get the job etc. 

    Perhaps the answer is that it’s just not meant to be and I will find out in the future why that was the case.

    Kind regards

    André

Reply
  • in reply to Lesley

    Dear Lesley,

    Many thanks for your response and helpful advice.

    I do volunteer with the Samaritans as a Listener on the phones in the evening, but they don’t actually take on HR volunteers during the day. Like the CAB who I have also made inquiries with, they have a core HR staff team based only at their Head Offices which are full time, paid and permanent and not in any of the local branches and centres around the country.

    Some other places may take on daytime HR volunteers, but I would then need to leave my paid daytime job to do that which is not a viable option either, as I can’t naturally be in two different places at the same time.

    I have been volunteering as an HR Advisor on a weekly Wednesday evening basis at the Mormon Church in London since September 2017 at their employment resource centre, but it does not count as the employers say that with respect, anyone can offer their services to volunteer, you are not being formally supervised (as its not a controlled and directed contract of service), and you have not had to compete fiercely for a formalised and paid 9-5 employed position, that we want the experience gained and demonstrated within.

    I agree with the advice given about targeting applications for HR Advisor roles only in organisations that I am interested in.

    However, nine times out of ten they don’t currently have any HR vacancies or are not presently recruiting at the moment. They also don’t accept speculative CVs to put on file and just tell you to sign up for regular email alerts and keep watching the website for a future vacancy which may arise.

    In practice, that means waiting up to around a year to see if one comes up, which I have done, but then I never obtained an interview or a job offer after an interview due to: “overwhelming competition from other candidates who had more relevant experience, and who better fitted the needs of the position and matched the requirements of the organisation in question.”

    So, it’s not easy to get any type of job and always an uncertain application numbers game and lottery which ensures that ultimately, I am the one who is never chosen and who ultimately always walks away without the winning ticket in hand, namely the job in question.

    Maybe it’s because I got into HR too late at 40 as most people did enter the profession in their 20s & 30s, maybe it’s because I have slight Asperger’s Syndrome, that can manifest itself throughout the recruitment and selection process, but then, who knows?

    I think however that it essentially boils down to the following two key factors:

    (1) I haven’t got the experience and also can’t get the experience - the age old chicken and egg catch 22 scenario;

    (2) The numbers of other candidates, often younger than myself, who somehow have and did get the experience, as they mainly got into the profession earlier than myself and who the employers naturally prefer to hire over myself.

    So, where does this leave things given that all what I have tried to date has not worked or delivered an HR Advisor’s role in my case and it is admittedly not easy with the jobs as a whole either?

    I also can’t get to HR Advisor level in the NHS or Civil Service either.

    (1) Realistically, I am not going to break into Marketing at the age of 45, so ‘super qualifying’ myself with a CIPD Level 7 in L&D to compliment the one in HR which I have can be a start.

    (2) Doing a PhD in HR alongside my day job as an HR Administrator as a compensatory substitute.

    (3) No more online LinkedIn and Reed applications with the click of the bottom by sending my profile and attached CV. It does not work and deliver a job. I have done 65,000 in total U.K. & worldwide over the past four years.


    (4) Highly targeted and strategic networking to tap the hidden unadvertised jobs market through a series of informational interviews.

    (5) See if I can secure a role in HR in an international organisation in France, Benelux or Germany. I can speak French, Dutch and German.

    (6) Using the Associate Menbership of the CIPD to join the Australian Institute of HR to see if that opens up any possible opportunities there, along with looking at possible emigration options to Canada and New Zealand (I can’t get to US as they only take STEM degree professionals with HR not in demand and a different system and employment law there).

    (7) Attending more CIPD branch events and seminars, but bear in mind that I can’t start pestering or asking the people who I meet there for a job. They will tell me that’s it’s not the appropriate venue / forum for that and like all the other candidates, I need to go through mainstream recruitment channels .

    There we have it then alongside continuing in my present role.

    Just to finally add, I think that ultimately and welcome to the adult world, we don’t always happen to get what we want in life despite our very best efforts. People either get certain things in life or not, and if you can’t, you can’t.

    I also understand that it can be frustrating to read this but I have tried every possible avenue and approach but still can’t get the job etc. 

    Perhaps the answer is that it’s just not meant to be and I will find out in the future why that was the case.

    Kind regards

    André

Children
  • in reply to Andre
    * I do not think that I choose the wrong profession here or that I am necessarily unsuited to this profession. It’s that I got into it at least 10-15 years later then the average member and that factor and timescale is having an impact here as rightly or wrongly, there are expectations of what job role level you should be on at a certain age. *

    45 is 45 to be an HR Administrator with a Level 7. It is what it is and other people’s journeys started earlier than mine.
  • in reply to Andre

    On a separate note here as we have a presence in the Middle East and Asia Pacific, how easy or difficult would it generally be to land a role in HR in Dubai or Singapore, as I can’t get anything and nothing comes here at home?

    That would be another option I would be willing to explore in an attempt to break this impasse.

    Very finally to add, I have neurodiversity or mild Autism which has been attributed in the past as either being a common denominator, recurring theme or which can add an additional spike and complication to the recruitment and selection process, when being compared and assessed against other candidates who do not.

    In short, my mind works in a different way and I do not automatically pick up on the more hidden and unwritten social rules, norms and subtleties of human interaction and behaviour. Things can be be obvious to some are not always obvious to myself. 

  • in reply to Andre
    Hi Andre, I have been interested in your thread and in the useful and the sympathetically direct advice you have been given. Have you tried reaching out to some of the Autism organisations, asking if they have any HRBP type roles available? I mention it because they will undoubtedly be exceptionally warm to the benefits that your mild condition brings. Also you might consider elaborating in your CV on the soft skills which many other applicants might lack. For example, I expect your higher degree of emotional intelligence might be something that other applicants might lack a little, since I’d imagine emotional intelligence is likely more natural to those with autism. You may also be more exceptional at following process to the letter, so long as you know when it’s right to break from process. Perhaps you are better at giving direct feedback? Think about what soft skills set you above other candidates, and think less about the reasons why you probably aren’t getting the role. This helps your applications to have a positive feel, which is what employers want to see.
  • in reply to Angela

    Hi Angela,

    Many thinks for your suggestions and I shall apply and carry them out in full.

    Having now had the time to reflect in full on 2018 and what did and did not happen, I have adopted a policy strategic withdrawal that I am just going to focus wholly on doing more studies over the next few years, get more time served experience in my present role as an HR Administrator and see where I am again in 24 months time.

    It may well have been a question that currently is not my time, but I learned the following and very important lessons in 2018 in terms of why is it that you try everything but just can’t get work / the job:

    (1) It has never been easy to get a job or jobs per se. although we are in times of low unemployment, you are still never the only candidate who applies and also has to fiercely compete with several others;

    (2) Organisations are very careful and selective who they take. Nine times out of ten they want the exact matching, fitting and indentical experience or are essentially looking for the entire package to that measured against the essentials and desirables on a person specification;

    (3) If they don’t immediately get or find the above, they rather leave the vacancy open and look again rather then talking a chance on and training someone up with determination, enthusiasm and potential, or then bringing in someone from outside the EU / EEA by visa sponsorship.

    In short, they are just out to get the very best of the best onboard in terms of people.

    (4) It’s also exactly the same case all over the world. I would face similar issues in Ireland, France, Benelux, Germany, Scandinavia, Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Malta, Baltic States, Russia, Canada, USA, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Seychelles, Maldives, Mauritius, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Singapore and Hong Kong, as I have also tried for more advanced level HR roles there.

    This is in addition to nationwide all over the UK.


    (5) The one click easy apply option with the tap of the button and sending your attached CV in LinkedIn, Reed et al does not work or deliver a job;

    (6) Agencies and Recruiters are not much help either, as being a sales and highly target driven KPI role, their ultimate loyalty is to the client, their customer, and not the candidate.

    So, there we have it in a fine nutshell and after having done 65,500 LinkedIn easy apply worldwide over the past four years, I am going to give it up and just do studies on the side of my full time HR Administrator role.

    I have exhausted all options, I have the job I have as its entry level willing to train in the NHS and not demanding too much previous experience and there we are. I have ‘a job’at least.

    What I will however look at this year is not applying for advertised roles but the very fine art of targeted and strategic networking, informational interviews, leads, referrals and direct speculative approaches to see if that wil yield any results.

    Very finally, I do have slight Asperger’s Syndrome and Dyspraxia, and volunteer on Friday evenings with Samaritans as a call Listener to help enhance soft, emotional intelligence and empathic skills. That is always an option if a paid HR Advisor role opens up there. 

    In addition, I also volunteer as an HR Advisor at the Mormon Church’s self reliance and employment advisory service in London, so have signed up to most things and are ticking all the boxes in that respect.

    This year, I shall also strive to get my Dutch language skills up to a fluent level and standard which is also a unique selling point and helps me stand out from the wider crowd.

    Kind regards

    André

  • in reply to Andre
    I forgot to add Austria and Switzerland where I have also tried and can speak French and German, but it’s all academic in any case.
  • in reply to Andre
    We sincerely wish you well, André. Good luck with whatever route you choose.
  • in reply to Andre
    "Anyone can offer their services to volunteer" Absolute tosh! Makes a mockery of charities that have professional HR volunteers (aka those who do in addition to their full time roles), what about CIPD Enterprise Advisers? I really would like to meet these people with these very strange views!
  • in reply to Paul

    It doesn’t actually work, deliver, match for me or tick any of the boxes in my specific case, per the recent feedback below I obtained from an interview:

    ‘With regards to your question about the HR Adviser role, the panel would suggest you obtain formal practical experience in a setting where you have accountability to others and are guided by set policies and legislation.’

    I am grateful for all your advice here, but I have actually tried it all and it does not work for me. Maybe it works for other people because they like them, do not find them different (I have neurodiversity) or a possible personality clash, but in my case it does not work.

    A lot of it also comes down to whether or not your face fits, are you perceived as one of them or more as an outsider, and do you fit the typical employee stereotype and profile.

    But ultimately, you can’t force a job even if you are the best candidate. It’s a collective management decision and they decide who they employ and reject. 

  • in reply to Andre
    Do they want you on the team is the acid test that determines hiring decisions.
  • in reply to Andre

    Hi Andre

    What are you looking for from this thread? You must have spent hours assuring us again and again at length and in detail that your position is hopeless and rejecting suggestions. What is it you are still looking for that makes you keep coming back?